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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:24 pm 
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WTAMU in Canyon has "zero" aspirations to move to D1. They want to be the Grand Valley St of D2 and dominate. I got this from a friend who talked with their AD face to face about 2 years ago. Now I know things can change in 2 years, but that was their attitude in 2008. They are putting millions into facilities and are very happy as a D2 school. I do know Central OK, Abilene Christian and Tarleton ST have made inquiries. ACU and UCO seem like two schools who could do well in the Southland. Not sure about Tarleton St. I know nothing about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:14 pm 
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nice take. I dont know much on any of them other than WTAMU, and that still isnt very much.

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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Bear Fan 101 wrote:
nice take. I dont know much on any of them other than WTAMU, and that still isnt very much.


UCO probably has the nicest facilities as well as market size outside of OKC. Take a look at their football stadium.

http://www.bronchosports.com/documents/ ... ntland.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:19 pm 
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Let the chips fall where they may, but this is a pretty good read from start to finish. It goes into the process for both Texas St. and UTSA:

http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/utsa/2010/09/with-invitations-seeming-like.html#comments
With invitations 'a foregone conclusion,' what now?
By Dan McCarney on Sep 29, 10 10:20 AM

Quote:
Benson absolutely, positively has to have two teams to join for 2012, when the WAC will be down to six schools, for scheduling purposes. He's talked to three football schools -- seriously with UTSA and Texas State, and informally with Montana.

Whether or not he accepts remains to be seen, but Montana athletic director Jim O'Day certainly seems confident an invitation will be coming according to this report in the Missoulian newspaper.

Neither UTSA's Lynn Hickey or Texas State's Larry Teis have been that bold, but at this point, the handwriting is on the wall, spelled out in neon spray pain -- theirs are on the way as well. As Southland Conference commissioner Tom Burnett told me this morning, "Quite honestly, and this is just my personal opinion, but them going to the WAC is a foregone conclusion. It's a 'when,' not an 'if.'"...

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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:23 pm 
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and the teleconference transcript from the WAC commish:

http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/utsa/2010/09/benson-teleconference.html

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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:33 pm 
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UTSA fixing to take up football? There, or TxSt., is our money game for a while without getting beat up with injuries and maybe a win to boot. :idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:23 am 
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Honey Bear wrote:
UTSA fixing to take up football? There, or TxSt., is our money game for a while without getting beat up with injuries and maybe a win to boot. :idea:



(1) Would not offer us.

(2) Would not pay enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:17 pm 
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Southland Conference Expansion...Time to Consider Some Options

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The Southland Conference, an FCS football conference, has known for sometime that their membership numbers might be shrinking. For a decade, Texas St. has been public about their desire to upgrade to FBS football. UTSA, a school without football much of this decade has plans to go from having no football program to being FBS in 2014. Not to be left out, FCS football newcomer Lamar has long term eyes set on FBS. And with three other Texas schools preparing to upgrade, Sam Houston St. has flirted with the idea of an upgrade.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:22 pm 
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This from the Honolulu StarAdvertiser:

http://www.staradvertiser.com/sports/20 ... nsion.html


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Interesting info from Montana's AD:
From AGS

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I understand your concerns – you are not alone. This is, perhaps, the most critical decision to ever face the intercollegiate athletic program at The University of Montana.

With state funding flat and student athletic fees holding tight, and with expenses growing year-by-year at a steady pace (at least $250,000 per year alone in just scholarship costs and related room/board costs for out student-athletes), we find ourselves at a cross roads. With revenues presently capped at about $13 million per year, we are having to find ways to cut expenses… and one option may have to be scholarships to out-of-state student athletes if we cannot find new revenue sources. We realize this could hurt our competitiveness as we cannot just take out of certain non-revenue generating sports because of Title IX issues. In addition, our insurance continues to rise, as does rent and travel. We can assume our expenses will jump at least $500,000 annually… and really no new revenue to meet these increases. We have continued to cut our expenses about $250,000 or more per year for the past three years…. But now we are down to the bare bone. Any further cuts will affect programs. You can see that already --- our entire budget for recruiting for all 14 sports is $178,000; at Montana State it’s $408,000 per the recently released NCAA audit numbers.

Currently, we charge the highest prices at the Football Championship Subdivision level for football tickets. How much more can we ask of our fans to try and keep us competitive (there are no guarantees). We generate about $4.2 million in football tickets right now…. Twice the $2.1 million brought in by Appalachian State at No. 2 amongst FCS schools. By comparison, Montana State brings in about $1.2 million per year – Washington State at $3.8 million – and Idaho at $900,000. To stay with us, MSU is making up the difference with institutional support and student athletic fees (MSU is at $144/student/year; UM is $72/student/year; the UM and MSU athletic budgets are almost identical – yet the expense lines vary because of our private funding successes). Student-athletic fees vary across the country. At James Madison, they are $1,400 per student per year. Old Dominion and Appalachian State are about $700 per student/year; while the average in the Big Sky Conference is $200/student/year. Note: Northern Arizona does not yet pay a student-athletic fee. Instead, they get the same state appropriation as Arizona and Arizona State – or about $8 million per year. On the other end of the spectrum, Sac State receives little institutional support, yet the student-athletic fee is about $265/student/year --- and generates almost $9 million for the athletics department.

Here’s an estimated breakdown of how we produce our revenues….

Football tickets $4,200,000 (MSU - $1.2 million)
Institutional support $4,500,000 (MSU - $6.7 million)
Grizzly Scholarship Association $1,500,000 (MSU - $1 million)
Student Fees $1,000,000 (MSU - $1.8 million)
Corporate/Grizzly Sports Prop. $ 650,000 (MSU - $350,00)
Men’s basketball $ 400,000 (MSU - $200,000)
Women’s basketball $ 350,000 (MSU - $50,000)
Game guarantees $ 150,000 (MSU - $800,000)
NCAA monies $ 300,000 (MSU - $300,000)
Big Sky Conference $ 125,000 (MSU - $125,000)
Television $ 75,000 (MSU - $65,000)
CLC $ 20,000 (MSU - $160,000)

Now we face the ever-mounting challenge of how to produce more revenue?

At the same time, we also have Title IX issues that Montana State does not have. UM has a 54% female population; Montana State is 54% male. We have a 40% female to male student-athlete ratio (we need to be at 54% or close – or spend 54% of our funding on female sports – neither of which is possible with football. Montana State is just the opposite as it needs a ratio of about 54% male, or 54% spending on male sports… thus, not an issue to them). We are struggling with the third and final prong for Title IX compliance, which is currently under heavier scrutiny based on recent Obama Administration interpretation. We will most likely need to add two female sports shortly or face possibly penalty. Those penalties do not affect the athletic programs – but schools in general as their federal funds/grants/research dollars can be impacted – or about $150 million annually at UM that could be at risk. Thus, somehow, we need to find about $2 million more per year (not counting facilities) to run two new programs. Thus, we most likely will need higher student fees to meet these Title IX and related expenses. Doubt it any of this money would help any other concerns (maintaining football funding, facility improvements, etc.). Also, additional institutional support is out of the question…. It is so tight right now.

Looking at our present revenue structure, one way to increase funding is to consider a move to the Football Bowl Subdivision (NCAA revenues, game guarantees, television, conference dollars and corporate dollars are significantly higher. For example, Idaho receives almost $2.5 million in league revenues, and another $500,000 in television revenues) – but this is not a “for sure” situation either. Instead, it might be considered a gamble – maybe not necessarily a risk. Could we lose fans in the stands? Absolutely. Could we right now if we went 6-5 or less? Absolutely. Would fans continue to come if we charge high prices for Western States of Colorado, or maybe even Montana Tech? Who knows. Will they come if our schedule consists of Idaho, Utah State, Hawaii, San Jose State… and non-conference games against schools such as Boise State, Nevada, Wyoming and Washington State? Possibly. Note: Wyoming is hosting Nebraska next year. In exchange, they will travel to Nebraska in 2012 and 2013. In 2013, Nebraska will pay Wyoming $1 million for making the trip. Last year, Wyoming hosted Texas as part of a home-and-home contract. Those are not available to us now. In fact, WAC or Mountain West schools are no longer allowed to play at FCS schools via by-law changes. They also are recommending they don’t play ANY FCS school – home or away. That begs the question: Who do Montana fans want to see in the next 2-10 years in Washington-Grizzly Stadium. At the FCS level, there are fewer and fewer out there who will come here.
Couple other things to realize:
--- Both the Big Sky Conference and the WAC NEED Montana. Where ever we end, that conference will most likely survive at a higher level. The commissioners of both conferences know that, as do the schools (although some at the Big Sky level would hate to admit it).

--- Montana is THE school west of the Mississippi in the FCS – and the only one since Boise in 1994 to make the championship game (which the Broncos lost). The Big Sky losing Montana would be devastating to some as they need the traveling Montana fans to attend their contests, and purchase tickets. We are also responsible for the television dollars associated with each of the league schools. For example, KPAX/MTN bid $100,000 to television the Griz-Cat game, the next highest bidder was Max Media at $20,000. Our other games were bid at $10,000 each by KPAX; Max Media pays $2,500 to do Bobcat telecasts. Thus, Max Media is spending more money in production equipment; while the schools are getting the cash from KPAX. By league policy, 60% of the revenue from these telecasts go to the HOME team (not UM), 35% to the visitor and 5% to the league. So how out-of-line is this: Last year, MSU received $60,000 of KPAX’s bid (to do UM games), while Montana received $35,000 and the conference $5,000. These are the reasons why Boise State left the Big Sky in the mid-1990s; why BYU and Texas are doing what they’re doing right now. They want to control their television money. The television money should be following UM, but we get outvoted on this 8-1 whenever it comes up.

--- Football at UM breaks even. We generate $6.5 in revenues; and the expenses associated with football at $6.5. Thus, others are probably losing $3-$4.5 million annually. How long can that continue at some schools?

--- We are struggling to find opponents to play in Missoula…. Cost is high, plus we win 93% of our games here. People do not like to come here. Even Division II schools are asking “guarantees” in excess of $125,000 to come here. That cuts drastically into our revenues.

--- We are NOT guaranteed home playoff games. We have been extremely fortunate in the past. To put in perspective, we made about $100,000 for the three home playoff games last year – and sent another $1.1 million to the NCAA. A regular season home game nets between $400,000 and $1 million (Montana State, App State, etc.). Being in the WAC, we are allowed 12 games instead of 11 – and 13 when you play at Hawaii. So instead of $100,000 at max, we would be seeing additional dollars… at a minimum of $300,000.

--- The FCS playoff system is hurting financially. We produced $1.1 million of last year’s budget of $2.5 million. The other 11 games produced less than $1 million TOTAL. The NCAA lost almost $500,000 again, and it will not continue to tolerate to follow this plan. Now we’ve added another round and four more teams…. Being on the committee, and as chair, I know this is a major concern to the NCAA – and a last-gasp reason for changing to Frisco, Texas, in hopes of attracting more attention and support. It won’t help to move the championship back three weeks into January – let alone that it will be taking place 40 minutes away from the Cotton Bowl, which has also been moved to that night. So much for FCS exposure on national television. Just to keep the student-athletes on campus during Christmas will also cost the two schools in the championship an additional $100,000 – none of which is budgeted. And to put in perspective, we LOST $150,000 each of the past two year going to the championship game. Had we won, the incentives for coaches would have put the losses over $200,000 each time. We get no additional revenue for any of this.

--- AND OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE: We are NOT considering the health and welfare of the student-athletes, who are having to spend at least one month of playing 4-5 more games --- which is permanently damaging their bodies – and hurting their academics. This is not fair to them – nor their coaches. This is where all of us are selfish, and want the playoff system vs. a bowl. At the FBS level, there is a month off to recover bodies, take care of academics and finals, and at the end, a reward of a bowl and some fun --- and the schools don’t lose money like we do at the FCS level.

History will determine if the decision by the new President (Royce Engstrom) to either remain where we are, or take a new direction, was correct. There are no easy answers. Heck, had we gone to the WAC a few years ago, we’d probably be in a much more lucrative Mountain West Conference right now with schools we consider on academic par – Wyoming, Colorado State, etc. Who knows what will happen. I would venture to say there are only about four conferences right now who appear to be solid and control their own destiny --- the SEC, the Big 10, the Big 12 (unless Texas and Oklahoma do an “about face” in the next few years) and the Pac 12 Even the ACC and the Big East have issues, let alone those like Conference USA. The Mountain West is starting to look more like the old WAC (especially if TCU bolts, which is likely). Could that mean a merger of the Mountain West and WAC down the road…. Again. This could be a distinct possibility. That being said, where does that leave the Big Sky? Should the FCS fail – which is another possibility, especially with Appalachian State, James Madison, Villanova, Delaware, Georgia Southern, Richmond and others being considered for moves into other conference alliances within FBS conferences – would we be all alone? How many schools in the Big Sky would still be offering football, or would we become a basketball conference? Would it even be Division I, or would we be forced out to Division II? If you don’t have an invitation from a Division I conference, you may have no choice. This may be the only opportunity UM gets to be “invited” to a true Division I conference.

As you can see, there are no easy answers – and it is very, very complicated. These points and many others will be presented --- and have been closely reviewed and monitored by our national consultants --- who do these independent studies for schools for a living. Other responsible schools are doing the same, as are conferences. They give you the most accurate, up-to-date information available.

Finally, I will end this long message with an interesting observation by the consultants.

In asking faculty and deans who are their “peers,” they mentioned schools such as Idaho, Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado and Colorado State. The consultants asked why no Big Sky schools – with the exception of Montana State for “tied in” reasons,” the faculty responded they do not see the Idaho States, Eastern Washingtons, Northern Colorados, etc., as “peer academic institutions.” Au contraire, the consultants’ studies show: “You are who you hang out with.” This is true across the board in life --- and here as well. Thus, this is extremely important to consider as well as we move forward.


Right now, we have a heavy saturation of Montana students attending UM (1,500 more Montana residents now attend UM than MSU – hard to believe… a complete turn-around from 10-15 years ago). But, census reports show the numbers of Montana high school graduates spiraling downward rapidly. Each Montana student costs UM about $2,300… a loss-leader for us in the business world. Thus, they need higher tuition being paid by out-of-state students to make up the difference. That out-of-state market is becoming increasingly competitive… and national exposure from an athletic program can help open the door to those out-of-state students who might consider coming here. This, too, has to be considered in any decision making…. A vision for future enrollment.

I have a motto: “Don’t make decisions based on ego or emotion. Base them on fact and figures.” That will be no different here. Right now, our emotions are high… we want what we had… We like being at the top and play for championships bigger than the Big Sky Conference – but we have to define “at the top of what?” We have great regional/state-wide recognition, but not much nationally. Look at the direction Boise State is taking. The consultants believe Montana could be the next Boise State – not the next Idaho. Actually, Idaho may now be in a better financial situation than we do – and their college is growing nationally.

Today is a new day. It is NOT business as usual – particularly in the area of intercollegiate athletics at the NCAA Division I level… where budgets range from $8 million annually to Texas and Ohio State at $120 million.


I’m sure you see now why this will be such a difficult decision by President Engstrom – and one that will have to be made in the very near future. We will feed him all the latest information, but ultimately, it will be his decision --- and will have to be supported by the Board of Regents. Wish it were easier, but it isn’t. At least UM has options --- others are only followers in all of these discussions. We’re in a good place… and that separates us both academically and athletically from the others.

Keep the faith …. And GO GRIZ!!!!

Jim O'Day
Director of Athletics
The University of Montana
Phone: 406.243.5348


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:45 pm 
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Mr O'Day gives the impression that MU is damned if they do and damned if they don't. No doubt a very difficult decision to make. After reading all of that I think UCA better stay right where they are at for, um, 10, 15....years.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:39 pm 
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If UTSA, TSU and Lamar head to FBS conference, could remaining SLC schools link up with La Tech, Rice and Noirth Texas to form a new FBS conference? Travel has to be an issue for La Tech in the WAC. Maybe LTU would not want to be in a conference with other La schools but it has been that way in the past (say old Gulf State Conference) when they moved from NAIA to D2.

It would seem a conference neeeds to better manage travel costs, have decent TV markets (and recruiting markets) and have interesting matchups.

Other than arrogance, why would WAC not let La Tech play at UCA if that is what both schools agreed to? Is that really so La Tech (et al) will not have to worry about ever having to play at a FCS site?

There is a serious problem growing with a concentration of money in a small number of programs....Texas, Florida, etc. Get too greedy and kill the goose.

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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Let's look at a strange possibility for the Southland:

SFA stays or moves to FBS.
SHSU moves to FBS
Texas State moves to FBS
Lamar moves to FBS
UTSA moves to FBS
McNeese gets a big budget cut.
Nicholls gets a big budget cut.
Northwestern State gets a big budget cut.
SELA gets a big budget cut.

If those budget cuts happen at that high rate (35% I believe), then those Louisiana schools may end up cutting athletics in some fashion.

Where does that leave the SLC for UCA? Moving to the OVC? Moving to FBS also not long after? It looks like the Louisiana cuts are gonna be big! Geez..where is the SLC in a few years? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:42 pm 
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IF something happens to the the LA schools and the SLC falls apart, I think that we could apply for full membership into the Missouri Valley Conference (and the Missouri Valley Football Conference) or the Ohio Valley Conference. Neither of those options would be ideal due to the fact that most of our sport recuit heavily in TX, but I guess we could just expand (or change) our recruiting area.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas State, UTSA, talking to WAC (and maybe Lamar too)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:11 pm 
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I'm just copying and pasting this full article, got the article from here though:
http://katfans.com/newforum/index.php?topic=853.0


Texas State, UTSA, HBU weighing options
By RONNIE TURNER
Copyright 2010 Houston Chronicle
Oct. 3, 2010, 11:36PM

The winds of realignment have made their way to the Southland Conference and could ultimately sweep out at least two schools in the coming months.

Texas State and Texas-San Antonio are among five programs being considered for admission into the Western Athletic Conference. The Beaumont Enterprise reported Thursday that Lamar plans to position itself for a move to another conference, though athletic director Larry Tidwell did not provide any possible destinations.

SLC commissioner Tom Burnett told the San Antonio Express News last week that he expected Texas State and UTSA to eventually leave the Football Championship Subdivision and bolt for the WAC, which is scrambling for survival in the aftermath of losing Boise State, Fresno State and Nevada to the Mountain West Conference.

His position remains unchanged.

"When you look at what the WAC is faced with and what they need to do to essentially ensure their existence in the future, they need football programs, and they need them right now," Burnett said. "Texas State and UTSA have made it very clear that this is something that they want in their future, and they have not only said that but have acted on it.

"They have put money or soon will into tremendous growth in their athletic departments, facilities, scholarships, staffing, all of that which will lead them to have the ability to play in the Football Bowl Subdivision."

The SLC would lose two of its strongest members should Texas State and UTSA depart. But that could also present an opportunity for up-and-coming programs to gain entry into the SLC.

Burnett said it's premature to speculate about whether the conference would add new members but that all options are on the table and that the league schools' presidents would handle membership issues.

"If we were to lose two members, (we could be) a 10-member conference with eight of those members playing football," Burnett said. "Or we could perhaps look outside of our conference to see if there's anyone out there who might enhance our membership moving forward.

"By no means of losing two members would we be in a panic mode where we rush to do something for the sake of doing it."

Houston Baptist is one program that could eventually find itself on the SLC's radar. The Huskies, a non-football program, are in their final year of their four-year probationary period for attainting full Division I status since returning to the NCAA after a 17-year stint in the NAIA.

HBU is in its third year in the Great West Conference, but a move to the SLC could prove to be more beneficial, especially in terms of geography and postseason prospects.

"We've been very pleased with our participation in the Great West Conference- it is a conference that stretches almost from one end of the country to the other," HBU athletic director Steve Moniaci said. "Certainly, should the opportunity present itself for us to enter into a more regional league, we would have to take a very hard look at that."

Burnett complimented HBU, but he did not speculate much about the SLC possibly reaching out to that program.

"I do know they're doing great things at HBU with what Steve Moniaci... and president Robert Sloan are planning for that athletic program in the future," he said. "But we probably haven't spent enough time on schools outside of our 12 that we have now. Before we began to explore anything like that, our presidents would have to direct us to do something like that."

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